The Waffen SS: A Brief Background Study

[Sgt_Rock]

@ Eddie

A very interesting insight you have there. But it cannot be denied that Nazi ideology was the main curriculum at the SS-Junkerschule ( equivalent of West Point). Candidate soldiers were already members of the Hitler Youth. It is a fact supported by documents and witnesses ( to include admissions of Waffen and Wehrmacht themselves) that the SS did indeed carry out most of the atrocities related to the holocaust.

The SS-Junkerschule was located in the town of Bad Tolz, where a sub camp of the Dachau Concentration Camp was also located and provided free labor to the SS-Junkerschule and the Administration Building.

The SS was never technically a part of the Wehrmach due to the following facts:

- In 1939, Himmler, Head of the SS, established its own SS disciplinary system, so much so that civilian courts and Wehrmach cannot punish nor has any jurisdiction over the SS Officers and men. Crimes committed by any SS member and its auxiliaries can only be tried by the SS themselves.

- In 1939, when the SS was established ( which eventually grew into 20 Divisions with a million men) has its own command and operational structure to rival that of the German Army.

You are right when you said that the SS was under the the OKW, but only when these SS units are in the field in actual operations, for the sole purpose of a "centralized command" which is very vital on the field. But other than that, the SS has its own structure of command , under the direct command of Himmler, SS Chief, and was at odds with the Army due to their increasing encroachment into Army matters and security.

But as you correctly stated, the valor of the Waffen SS in the field cannot be denied. Just too bad, in my opinion, that they got overshadowed by their affiliation with the Nazi Party and their established participation of the holocaust.

You are right. Murder was not exclusive to the SS. The Dachau Massacre was just one of them. Here, Waffen SS POWs were machinegunned against a wall by a nervous jittery GI. But this case was certainly not sanctioned by the US High Command . The irony of this was that those Waffen SS guarding the Dachau concentration camp were only assigned to guard the camp a few weeks before the Allies arrived. The original SS- Totenkopf abandoned the camp for fear of reprisals.

At any rate, you have a very informative assessment of the waffen SS. Hope you can share more for the benefit of all of us reenactors and airsofters of the Third Reich.

More power to your group in Indonesia and thank you for providing a very meaningful insight into the nature of the Waffen SS.

[jimmiroquai]

Friendly reminder guys - Let's try to keep the hero worship of the "baddies" to a minimum. I know this is a very controversial topic( and is closely being monitored by the staff). Just remember to keep it clear of any ideology and politics. Continue discussion!

[labrador]

Ah yes, The Waffen SS "soldier's like any other" discussion. I always fear this one. Ever since i discovered the Waffen SS when i was in early high school (About a century ago). I've also expressed and lived the gamut of all the degrees of the Waffen SS fanboy....From drooling apologist (many years-mea culpa) to distancing myself by opting for an HG impression so i could still wear the camou smock. In fact the reason why i went Philippine scouts was to balance out the bad boy image.

Much of the Waffen SS has been vilified due to the fact that it's parent organization was indeed an Evil organization bent on the destruction of the jews and running the machinery of the nazi state. Much of the early waffen SS was recruited from members of this ideology and professed their dedication to it and to the fuhrer. But by 1944-1945, when many W SS units were embroiled in some of their most spectacular battles quite a few of their number were already conscripted, drawn from planeless luftwaffe personnel and shipless kriegsmarine personnel and clueless volksdeutsch. Among these unfortunate recruits was the famous German pacifist author Gunther Grass (the tin drum) who had to hide the fact that he was a Frundsberger all these years. What made a difference in their performance was of course they were still led by that hard core of Bad Tolz graduates who had survived the rigours of the early campaigning especially on the eastern front.

I was browsing through the Axis awards website were someone had posted a very revealing set of photo prints of famous Waffen SS officers taking a familiarization tour of one of the death camps and there, among the grey uniforms were not the notorious SS officers that we are familiar with but the famous war heroes...Peiper, Klingenberg etc led by none other than the senior ranking officer on the trip...Papa Hausser himself. So I believe that the statement made by Gordon Williamson that the lines between the Waffen SS and the allgemeine SS were "somewhat porous" is far from accurate. I believe they were very porous and many of the combat officers in The Waffen SS may have had full knowledge of what was happening in the death camps. Heck, Even the notorious Dr. Mengele was a bemedalled artz of the Wiking Division!

And there we have it folks. War is hell. War Crimes are probably commited by every side especially in a complex world wide conflict like the second world war. It doesn't make it right. While the Nazi war machine does not have a monopoly on wanton killing of civilians and unarmed combatants, this does not excuse the nazi regime of inflicting a huge conflict on the World that killed millions.

What part does the Waffen SS have in all of this? A large part. Does this mean they should not be studied as an effective military unit? Eddie answered this. A lot of nato doctrine stems from studying these units. The excellent author James Reynolds (A general in the Canadian Army) has proven that a balanced and clear study of the waffen SS and its personalities is possible without hero worship or political spin.

Oh and as a parting shot, I've just finished reading James Bradley's "The Imperial Cruise- a secret history of empire and war". It is a story of a landmark trip made by Secretary of War Taft (Ex governor general of the Philippines) around asia to seal secret deals with the japanese that it seems led almost directly to WW2 in the pacific. It's an eye opening read.

[gman]

Personally, I like this organization as it gives us a chance to play at dress up and get to take turns to play "good" and/or "bad" guys. We're all aware how the war started, what happened during, and how it turned out.

What I particularly like about this org is nobody has discussed the politics of the war (as far as I know), and people keep this loose association to the level of dressing up, playing airsoft, getting to shout "Jawohl!", "Banzai" or "Charge" to their heart's content without raising anyone's eyebrows. And, speaking for myself, I like it that way.

[labrador]

I agree with gman. That's what makes the group "light" and friendly. but i believe that intelligent debate and historical research also has a place here.

[gman]

I agree with labrador also some forum members here are quite knowledgeable of history, and I find that I enjoy reading/listening to them, too.

[kalbs]

When posting anything regarding any history I ask you get the facts correct and only post the facts without speculation. I see lots of errors in some of the previous posts. The SS structure was a lot more complex.

What we assume is truth in history books may not be fact but some interpretation by the author that makes a point to his conclusions. I've read so many WW2 books and accounts of the same subjects or topics that after a while you see a pattern and learn to read other accounts to make your own interpretations or in may case keep digging till I’m satisfied. As an example, take Stephen Ambrose’s “Band of Brothers” and Major Dick Winters war memoirs. Both cover the same story, subjects and used the same witnesses but there are still obvious contradictions between both accounts.

The written history of Waffen SS has actually changed somewhat in last 15 years. What was published years ago was the “Correct” political account and based on Western published research only. Now that the iron curtain is down and having the free open internet we are putting more pieces together. Keep in mind the SS spent a lot more time fighting the Soviets than the Western Allies. I have gone back to some of my earlier books and found blatant errors, especially about the Waffen SS.

What is an absolute truth is that the Nazi regime was brutal and rode to power on hate using other races as an excuse for their own failures. We should never discount the mindset of any SS soldier and the Nazi political doctrine he swore a blood oath to. This board will never promote any Nazi ideology. If you believe an average SS soldier did not harbor these believes you would be wrong.

Ich schwöre Dir, Adolf Hitler, als Führer und Kanzler des Reiches Treue und Tapferkeit. Ich gelobe Dir und den von Dir bestimmten Vorgesetzten Gehorsam bis in den Tod, so wahr mit Gott helfe."

Translation:("I swear to you, Adolf Hitler, as Führer and Chancellor of the German Nation, loyalty and bravery. I vow to you and to my superiors designated by you obedience to the death. So help me God.")


I would argue that the Waffen SS wasn’t any more motivated or better than an American GI, British Tommy or Soviet Guard or did the SS have more courage.

[labrador]

"I would argue that the Waffen SS wasn’t any more motivated or better than an American GI, British Tommy or Soviet Guard or did the SS have more courage."

I generally agree with your statement kalbs.

I think the quality of the individual fighting man also tended to vary according to the phase of the war. Manteuffel's counter thrust against patton in Alsace yielded terrible results for the germans because though he was equipped with the latest model panthers and his infantry were fresh volksgrenadiers his men could not make up for the lack of training vis a vis the experience, training and morale of the Americans after the Normandy Breakout.

I think the excellent fighting qualities of the British Tommy were hampered a great deal, especially in the early years of the desert campaign, in malaya, in the normandy stalemate and market garden by dismal leadership of higher commanders. A terrible waste of excellent fighting men.

Where tank aces are concerned: George Balin states that while German Tank aces like Wittman have so many admirers, no one hears about Matthew Poole or Creighton Abrams who managed to knock out 40 german tanks in a decidedly inferior sherman, this while having to lead a tank battalion.

[DAN SAN]

during 1945.. to the soldiers (WH and W-SS) whom defend berlin is not about protecting the reich and nazism.. its about saving their bums because they are aware that the leader they have trusted just put them into trouble. the nazi hardcores are just a bunch of guys in their whimsical thousand year reich fairytale dream... lost of family, supplies, food, friends and kamerads... are the great contributor to put down their morale. german soldiers and their machines look cool! but politically during ww2 their crap!

[kalbs]

I'll keep my heros like the Philippine the Scouts, 101AB, RAF and etc. No Germans or Japanese are on my list but I do think the gear, guns and uniforms of the Axis forces are still the coolest, especially the SS.

[indonesische]

Hi guys,

Just got back from a needed weekend holiday, and I can’t say that I wasn’t surprised to read what was written as passionate response to my post, which is a much bigger welcome that I anticipate it would be. Wonderfully written, guys! I kid thee not, brilliant read!

First of all, I want to say that I wholeheartedly agree to gman, that is always safer and more convenient for everyone to keep the discussion “light”, and stay away from anything that would deprive the fun in airsoft forum. However, I guess there’s a certain package that comes with being a WW2 airsofter, and that is this inevitable history talk ;D

Honestly guys.. I didn’t mean to stir, especially with a rather inappropriate topic, coz’ that would be so un-newbie of me! However, since I seem to have accidentally woken up the lions I guess it would be impolite for me not to address with a fitting response.

So here it is.. War has been romanticized by all nations, elite troops revered above all others (thank you for the reminder, J!). But the world also needs a villain. After all, what nation would enter a war expecting to lose and be vilified for war crimes? War is mankind at its worst. But warriors shall remained a romantic figure for his willingness to participate and persevere amongst madness (which lies the problem).

It’s true what mr.Admin said about significant development on the written history of WW2 in general (not only the Waffen SS) this past 15 years, which is on the contrary IMO lies the problem that would be the origin of my earlier opinion. We use terms like “Nazi”, when not many of us realized that such term did not exist until post-war, not until it was celebrated by Hollywood and mainstream media.

Unfortunately, IMO history being simplified and dumbed down is the only great achievement there ever was. The operations of media that somehow built on sensationalizing, and so focuses on the simple and leaves the complex alone, has left us with little known evolutionary history behind WW2, dumbed down into the lunatic ranting of one man carried by one sinister organization.

Yes, there were willing executioners in the complex organization of the SS, and due to the connected organization, many were sprinkled throughout the Waffen SS as well. And these criminals had tainted one of the most valiant and battle hardy combat units to ever walk the earth. To make matters worst, came the media with constant efforts to have us believe it was the mindless drivel spouted by one man, carried out by anyone with SS runes on their collars, concurred by later published research and books on WW2.

Fun fact.. if you google photos of WW2 atrocities, I bet you $100 you can’t find many SS runes tab on these murderers’ collar

Back to serious stuff! Like Albert said, and I quote: “I would take some of the reporting on these men as propaganda..”. Since you bring this topic, the thing with propaganda, that it works both ways to harm as to oppose embellish. That the SS were solely responsible for single handedly acted the world’s most ghastly, most brutally, most horrific inhumane atrocities ever known in the face of the planet?? One that would make plight of American Indians, or genocide by the Serbs look like child’s play? Hmm.. Sorry to say, but it smells like propaganda of certain political alibi of a nation.

Before I continue, I would like to apologize if I offend anyone with my opinion which would sound trivializing and marginalizing, even worse suggesting a souray into world’s current political affairs. But I do believe that historical fact on the SS has been politicized (which I will not venture into details).

Historical exposure on the Waffen SS that is typically brought forth these days somehow has been a simple attachment to holocaust by one plotting organization, shies away from the realities in the field. And all the genius military inventions and innovations of the SS, has been ultimately sidetracked by the politicization of its historical facts.

The evolution of the Waffen SS is quite complex and really cannot be given justice in such short writing. But to sum up in one paragraph, the dumbed down version that the media and later published books passes along, is that the Waffen SS were filled with murdering monsters and driven by racial hatred is patently incorrect. Yes, there were racial hatred monsters filled a proportion of its rank. Yes, the Germans had strict policy in dealing with partisans, and German response in rear areas had always been harsh, but who’s to say any nation wouldn’t enforce similar policies to suppress rebellion in occupied territories?

What is absolute truth really? Did Waffen SS and its recruits were ardent Nazis? Among its core leadership maybe, but not entirely the case among the soldiery. It was merely answering the call of “fatherland” to be a part of best of the best at the time. Therefore, cast all politics aside, I think it would be fair to say that die Waffen SS were indeed hardened soldiers with incredible esprit de corps of whom had proven battle glories, and whom had been guilty by association.

Regards,
Eddie

PS. As for the “sacred oath” mr.Admin has referred earlier, (no mean to disrespect, sir!) But I believe the Wehrmacht had previously sworn it far before the war even started when Himmler executed Rohm and moderated the SA. The oath was not the exclusive domain of the SS, but the whole German Army.

[mannylazarus]

Hi Indonisiche. I agree with your sentiment. Actually there were good guys and "baddies" in almost every military formation which saw battle on both sides of WW2 ETO, particularly the eastern front. The fairness of "criminalization" for the entire SS organization including the Waffen SS will always be controversial.

The Waffen SS merely started out as a personal bodyguard. Not all may have been thoroughly politicized with nazi ideology. Some like Kurt Mayer was not even a member of the nazi party, nevertheless they all shared the same anti-bolshevik "ethos" with the rest of the SS Allegemine.

Regarding the oath of loyalty to the person of Adolf Hitler, my guess is that it was the price the German Army had to pay since the German officer class demanded Hitler eliminate the threat of Rohm and his SA as a precondition. Ernst Rohm wanted the SA to become the "brown army" (similar in concept to the communist "Red Army") which would have replaced the traditional German Werhmact as the main and offical national army of Germany. The Army felt the SS was not as big a threat as the SA, and in general the Waffen SS was never more than 10% the size of the whole German Army.

[mournblade]

I personally find this thread very informative and I am also very glad to see how everyone is keeping everything in proper perspective (ie. why we are in this hobby and showing respect to fellow posters).
Topics like these can be rather controversial at times. then again, one can argue that the subject of war is a controversial one. I'd imagine that if i got my wife's uncle - who got imprisoned and beaten up near death by the japanese in the last war- to talk about his experiences, he would be a tad more emotional about the war than say any of us here. I would not be far off the mark if I expect the same reaction from a Russian senior citizen who lived through the siege of Leningrad or an ageing Berliner who survived the final soviet assault in 1945. IMHO we can say we are lucky as we were personally spared the horrors of the last big war, and I cross my fingers and hope we'll be continued to be spared from the horrors of another one. This allows us to discuss these matters in a more restrained context in the interest of learning more about this unique period in history.

I've been in some airsoft forums in the past and admit to have left the hobby altogether until recently, mainly due to the behavior of those airsoft players out there. On the other hand I find this group to be different and a lot more decent and mature, and this is what attracted me to join. Both the content and the way people express themselves in this forum (and in this thread) speaks volumes about the level of decency of the people who post therein.

[gman]

hello indonesische,

a warm welcome to you, from a fellow noob.

actually, i don't think anybody here is of the mind that the SS weren't a good fighting force (for the most part; can't say about the latter formations though). And I think most of the people here are aware of the tactical genius and prowess of the SS units (and their limitations).

history is good, we always find out that there's something more to learn.

[justinaquino]

Aug 11, 2010 10:08:40 GMT 8 mournblade said:

I personally find this thread very informative and I am also very glad to see how everyone is keeping everything in proper perspective (ie. why we are in this hobby and showing respect to fellow posters).
Topics like these can be rather controversial at times. then again, one can argue that the subject of war is a controversial one. I'd imagine that if i got my wife's uncle - who got imprisoned and beaten up near death by the japanese in the last war- to talk about his experiences, he would be a tad more emotional about the war than say any of us here. I would not be far off the mark if I expect the same reaction from a Russian senior citizen who lived through the siege of Leningrad or an ageing Berliner who survived the final soviet assault in 1945. IMHO we can say we are lucky as we were personally spared the horrors of the last big war, and I cross my fingers and hope we'll be continued to be spared from the horrors of another one. This allows us to discuss these matters in a more restrained context in the interest of learning more about this unique period in history.

I've been in some airsoft forums in the past and admit to have left the hobby altogether until recently, mainly due to the behavior of those airsoft players out there. On the other hand I find this group to be different and a lot more decent and mature, and this is what attracted me to join. Both the content and the way people express themselves in this forum (and in this thread) speaks volumes about the level of decency of the people who post therein.

Well I think given how much time people here invest in learning history and remembering what happened, its more of a tribute. My grandfather would have loved seeing all this, despite his experiences. Its a good way of remembering, particularly when many would rather forget and repeat the same mistakes.