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Post by Sgt_Rock on Jul 20, 2010 11:11:24 GMT 8
Perhaps one of the most studied units and arising interest among re-enactors in WW2 German Armed Forces is the SS. To begin with, it must be emphasized that the SS ( particularly the Waffen SS in this case) was not and has never been part of the Wehrmach ( German Armed Forces). The Wehrmach was composed of the Heer ( Army), Lufffwaffe ( Air Force) and the Kriegsmarine ( Navy).
It also should be noted that much of the so called “crimes against humanities”were perpetrated by the SS. History has judged that the SS were war criminals. Even after the war, SS veterans were not eligible for war veterans pensions, while the rest of the Wehrmach veterans enjoyed this privilege.
Who are the SS ? These were the political armed wing of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party , aka the Nazis. They were, what we might call Hitler’s “ private army”. When Hitler rose to power, he maintained his loyal SS supporters ( maybe he never trusted the Wehrmach). The SS units existed alongside the Regular Armed Forces but was never technically part of it. To prove a point, SS members cannot be charged with offenses by any regular magistrate and cannot be court martialled by the Wehrmach. The SS were Nazi Party fanatics, well trained in Nazi ideology. The SS were considered elite and thus enjoyed privileges normally not granted to the Regular German Armed Forces. Because of this, the rest of the Wehrmach generally disliked them and viewed them with distrust.
How effective are the SS in combat? During the early years of the war, the SS combat performance was a dismal failure. This was so because they were ideologically well trained but not in combat tactics for which the Heer excelled. Hitler ordered that the SS be trained in the regular armed forces. During the rest of the war, the SS proved to be an effective elite fighting force.
As the war dragged on, it was necessary that the ranks be replenished. They now allowed “non-Germans” to join the Waffen SS., which before was totally unthinkable. We would see in the last remaining years of the war, of various nationalities of even Asians in SS uniforms. Documents and photos revealed that Indians ( from India) were also recruited. And you would not believe it, Waffen SS composed entirely of British ! They were called the British Free Corps. But this unit never actually made it to the combat zone. I think they were utilized only for propaganda and spying purposes.
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Post by mikevictor on Jul 20, 2010 12:28:05 GMT 8
One really interesting aspect for me was the multinational identity of the Waffen-SS which developed during the war. It was ironic that among the last to defend Berlin were Nordic and French volunteers.
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Post by DAN SAN on Jul 20, 2010 14:44:05 GMT 8
One really interesting aspect for me was the multinational identity of the Waffen-SS which developed during the war. It was ironic that among the last to defend Berlin were Nordic and French volunteers. actually, for the lack of man power and the call to arms against the commies and colonial powers is the cry of the waffen ss on the later stages of the war or rather its the propaganda. asians, arabics, slavs, turkistans, indians, japanese, korean, indonesian reports are unclear some say the guy is alone some say theres alot of em. remember not all things are recorded thru video and photos theres alot of things that may have excisted but not recorded.. maybe there was a pinoy? ;D ;D ;D if rizal was able to get a german girl.. maybe during the war theres still a pinoy doing business in the fatherland. ;D ;D ;D  |
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Post by Sgt_Rock on Jul 21, 2010 11:36:10 GMT 8
One really interesting aspect for me was the multinational identity of the Waffen-SS which developed during the war. It was ironic that among the last to defend Berlin were Nordic and French volunteers. Yes, the final defense of Berlin composed mostly by a mix bag of a depleted Wehrmach and Waffen SS volunteers, Hitler's Youth barely in their teens and old men in their 60s . What a way to go down. The reign of a thousand years of the Third Reich at its end. Very tragic. One really interesting aspect for me was the multinational identity of the Waffen-SS which developed during the war. It was ironic that among the last to defend Berlin were Nordic and French volunteers. actually, for the lack of man power and the call to arms against the commies and colonial powers is the cry of the waffen ss on the later stages of the war or rather its the propaganda. asians, arabics, slavs, turkistans, indians, japanese, korean, indonesian reports are unclear some say the guy is alone some say theres alot of em. remember not all things are recorded thru video and photos theres alot of things that may have excisted but not recorded.. maybe there was a pinoy? ;D ;D ;D if rizal was able to get a german girl.. maybe during the war theres still a pinoy doing business in the fatherland. ;D ;D ;D True, it was the shortage of manpower that forced the Nazis to reluctantly recruit foreign volunteers despite their belief that the SS must consist only of "true Aryan race" and to accept and need the help of lesser mortals. Actually, it was Hitler's idea to form a Foreign Legion similar to that of the ancient Roman Empire. But the difference was that the Roman Legions were composed only of Roman citizens. The foreign volunteers were called auxiliaries composed of non Romans such as the various Germanic tribes. Hitler's "Legions" was a misnomer. It should have been called "Auxiliaries". At any rate, a pinoy in the Waffen SS? We could only speculate. But not impossible, though. Remember Hitler was once rumored to be Rizal's bastard son? If that be the case, Hitler might have been half pinoy!  Only kidding, of course. |
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kalbs
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Post by kalbs on Jul 21, 2010 13:05:34 GMT 8
Regardless of the shortage of full Arians to fill the ranks the SS did not just allow anyone to join. A few Indians and a some Koreans laborers were indeed in the German armed forces but not really in in the SS. One Dutch Indonesian was in the Dutch SS Volunteers but I know of no others. The Indians were volunteers called Legion Freies Indien. They wore Army uniforms.
Some members did come from other Slavic nations but keep in mind they were generally of a specific race type or group. Estonians for example were under the Waffen SS but regulations forbid them to wear the SS ruins. This applies to many other SS divisions hence the various collar tab insignia.
A Pinoy in the SS is very unlikely and a Platoon or even a squad is even more unlikely. The SS were just too darn racist.
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Post by Sgt_Rock on Jul 21, 2010 16:04:31 GMT 8
The Nazis were indeed really in desperate need of additional manpower because the volunteers were forced to join the Waffen SS specifically. They made rounds of all the POW camps and coaxed the prisoners to join. Actually those "Indian" volunteers, the Legion Freies Indien, were indeed originally recruited into the Army but later transferred to the Waffen SS. That explains why they were photographed in Army uniforms. At any rate, they ended up with the Waffen SS.  More on the Indian volunteers here... www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2157 |
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labrador
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Post by labrador on Jul 21, 2010 19:13:49 GMT 8
by 1945 much of the waffen SS was conscripted, drafted from planeless luftwaffe crews and shipless kriegsmarine crews. quality of those drafts must have been dismal with them knowing that the war was virtually over and with the knowledge that many were heading for the eastern front. I think some semblance of quality was maintained by the fact that the core cadre were experienced frontsoldaten and NCO's from the earlier days that had been through the hell of Normandy and The Russian Front.
Besides, they still got issued the cool camouflage. hehehe
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Post by mikevictor on Jul 21, 2010 20:53:27 GMT 8
@sir Labrador: You got that right! I'm really tempted to build a Hohenstaufen impression because of the cool camo. But that means more expenses. Hahaha.
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labrador
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Post by labrador on Jul 21, 2010 21:11:05 GMT 8
i'm slowly working on a tropical fj impression. I got started because of the pics i've seen of the arab volunteers of the deutsche arabische unit of sonderverband 287 and 288. Mostly iraqi expats from germany trained as fallschirmjager for action in Africa and later in anti partisan warfare in the balkans. From the pictures i've seen, many were equipped with the same gear as FJ paratroopers.
But yes, the appeal of SS camouflage is hard to resist.
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Post by DAN SAN on Jul 22, 2010 10:50:54 GMT 8
i'm slowly working on a tropical fj impression. I got started because of the pics i've seen of the arab volunteers of the deutsche arabische unit of sonderverband 287 and 288. Mostly iraqi expats from germany trained as fallschirmjager for action in Africa and later in anti partisan warfare in the balkans. From the pictures i've seen, many were equipped with the same gear as FJ paratroopers. But yes, the appeal of SS camouflage is hard to resist. @ sir albert way the go! ;D ;D ;D ive been waiting for this project yer planning since before... my turkistan uniform can also be change to that unit its only the patches is what i need. some of them wears m42 stahl helms right? i saw some of the fj's wears the m42 with some guys wearing m38. |
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Post by Sgt_Rock on Jul 22, 2010 12:43:43 GMT 8
Additional info about the Waffen SS Foreign Legions : Ii seems that most of these foreign conscripts and volunteers were the most effective fighting force during the waning years of the war . They were the most ferocious fighter one would encounter in the battlefield because they knew that the allies were winning the war, and it was only a matter of when, so they fought to the end knowing that they could never return to their country of origin knowing what awaits them: The wrath of their countrymen. They were traitors. These foreign conscripts numbered around 900,000, excluding other SS units like the SS Totenkopf ( Concentration Camp Guards, and most brutal) and Hitler's own SS bodyguards. For a very good source of information re: Waffen SS Foreign Legion, please go to this site militaryhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/hitler_s_foreign_legion__waffen_ss |
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kalbs
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Post by kalbs on Jul 22, 2010 21:54:27 GMT 8
Totenkopf was formed into 3rd SS panzer division in 1939 yes from Camp guard & police units but after their heavy losses early during the France invasion 1940, Totenkopf members all came from standard recruitment processes, not from camp guards. It can be confusing because concentration camp guards were administered under SS-Totenkopfverbände (SS-TV). Although this is where the Totenkopf first formed the combat Regiment Germania from, by 1939 the SS-TV concentration camp SS were actually a different group than Totenkopf SS-3rd Panzer and not related at all.
Also, Hitler's body guards came from regiment LSSAH Leibstandarte also known as SS-VT (SS-Verfügungstruppe). LSSAH also formed 1st SS Panzer division Adolf Hitler.
As far as SS combat brutality goes I have to say Das Reich, SS 2nd Panzer takes the cake for their actions in Southern France just after the D-day invasion (Read "Das Reich" by Max Hastings) as well as Waffen 36th SS Grenadier Division- Dirlewianger in Warsaw who were made up from convicts.
Your assesment of foriegn troops is spot on for some regiments, especially the French and Belgian volunteers. The Indians, Russian and Yugoslavian SS however have a very spotty reputation for loyalty,depends on the unit. Some even again switched sides or commited outright mutiny against their German officers.
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labrador
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Post by labrador on Jul 23, 2010 10:11:20 GMT 8
Don't forget the latvians and estonians. These men were essentially fighting to defend their homes that had so recently been under soviet rule until the German invasion. The latvian and estonian divisions also earned their fair share of knight's crosses on the eastern front. One notable operation would be the defense of Narva; where these eastern european units operated with dutch, belgian and danish troops against overwhelming odds.
These SS men still continue to stir controversy to this day when they parade to honor their dead to the horror of the 50% ethnic russian populations of these states. These countries are probably the only ones in the world where waffen SS men parade in public as honored veterans.
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Post by Sgt_Rock on Jul 24, 2010 11:21:30 GMT 8
... As far as SS combat brutality goes I have to say Das Reich, SS 2nd Panzer takes the cake for their actions in Southern France just after the D-day invasion (Read "Das Reich" by Max Hastings) as well as Waffen 36th SS Grenadier Division- Dirlewianger in Warsaw who were made up from convicts. Very true, Dirlewanager Brigade was composed of convicts and the mentally ill. They were one of the SS units to be sent to quell an uprising in Warsaw sometime in 1944. They made no distinction between partisans and civilians. They killed everybody in sight and raped the women. They killed children and babies. One of their favorite tactics was playing bayonet catch by throwing live babies into the air and catching them with their bayonets. They were cruel. (Reminds me of the Japanese atrocities in the Philippine) Their behavior unnerved even Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer of the SS, that he sent in the German Military Police to make sure the men of the Dirlewanager Brigade would not turn against their leaders and other SS units nearby. Although Himmler himself actually encouraged these atrocities. |
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Post by indonesische on Aug 6, 2010 23:28:59 GMT 8
Just want to share my 2 cents..
In my opinion, a wrong opinion has been built toward the Waffen SS. Many people (even historians) that believe political indoctrination was an integral part of Waffen SS soldiers pre-war training, started generalizing Waffen SS inability to divorce themself with political element of Nazi regime, which then resided to be a widespread concept.
Waffen SS is seen as an exterminator unit, and not a combat unit, which is sad, and so not true. The thing with the Holocaust just made it even worse. The bravery of world’s once most gifted, most skillful, most deadly and effective elite unit favored by Wehrmacht’s most brilliant feldmarschalls with the likes of Von Manstein, Guderian and Model.. is doomed to be forgotten and condemned.
No one seem keen to remember their valor when they pulled Grossdeutschland out from Demjansk pocket, retook Kharkov, razed Kursk and tore down Market Garden. As if they were destined to suffer a terrible fate not to be seen as war heroes, but as cold blooded murderers. Especially with all these maximum exposures on final solution and Auschwitz, which had misled people not to perceive die Waffen SS as it really was, which is a genius military innovation that redefined modern warfare.
People believe that Waffen SS was the ultimate iron fist of the ruthless Nazi party and therefore, must be 100% politically infused! People imagine the worst kind of indoctrination there was in SS-Junkerschule where they prepare soon to be leaders of the pack. However, when a WWI hero Reichswehr lieutenant-general Paul “Papa” Hauser was selected for the job to lead the SS-Junkerschule, this was not to be entirely the case. Because Papa who came from a strong Prussian military family background, remained faithful to the old regular army training methods, and transferred many Wehrmacht officers to enforce them.
The main objective of SS-Junkerschule was to train Waffen SS future potential officers to be combat effective. This was the core. Officers and soldiers of die Waffen SS were to use the usual army salute just like any other military forces, an did not use “hitler salute” like depicted in so many war films.
Not to mention upon mobilization, the control of die Waffen SS was completely, totally and utterly handed over by the SS to OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht), which transform LAH & SS-VT into a full fledge military unit under the command of the German army (not the party).
When Gottlob Berger and Himmler managed to persuade Hitler into allowing recruitment of foreign nationals, and by that forming 30 new “multi color” volunteer divisions consist of different nationalities and ethnic groups, a concept which later led into the creation of NATO. All these SS divisions (including the 3 first core: LAH, SS-VT and Totenkopf) spent their short lifespan rendering military services for the Army campaigns throughout WW2, with the exception of Polizei-Division which was employed behind the advancing combat units to carry out “police and security duties”, by which many people believe that it was "Jews extermination". Not true.
Murder was NOT exclusive of the SS nor even of the Germans during WW2. I believe allies and Russians had their equal shares as well. War is dirty in all sense. Alas, damage was done, and someone had to be blamed. Hence even though die Waffen SS was not directly involved in the holocaust, nonetheless they were guilty by association and declared as a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal during Nuremberg Trial. And as a result, Waffen SS veterans and war heroes were denied many of the rights afforded to veterans of Wehrmacht regulars.
“History is written by the victor”, maybe this what made us ‘history-buffs’ go around dressed up in an SS-Uniform. Because we believe that the world has been treating die Waffen SS unfairly, and that the people who wrote history hasn’t been totally honest about it. Because on the other hand, modern military today all over the world has been bathing in the legacies of Third Reich military by countless of blueprints and manuals found from the ruins of the Third Reich.
Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Eddie
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Only kidding, of course.
